Episode 15:  With Special Guest and Sexologist Cheryl Camarillo

Welcome to the "Turning Wounds To Wisdom" podcast!

Why is it that statistically men are more likely to cheat?

What is it that people who end up with sex addictions, alcohol, porn, gambling or any other addictions want?

Why do women or individuals choose and STAY in relationships with partners who have these dysfunctional mechanisms?

All of this is answered with special guest Cheryl Camarillo, who talks from her PERSONAL experience of what she learnt being in a relationship with someone with a porn addiction.

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Love and Light always!!

 Welcome to the next episode of Turning Wounds to Wisdom podcast. Um, I'm actually really excited for this episode because I have a special guest on here and Cheryl is a certified sexologist. She knows and has a lot of experience in dealing with clients who've gone through betrayal, who've experienced what we call betrayal, trauma, cheating.

And difficult relationships. And, uh, on today's episode, she's going to talk to us about not just why people are men primarily, as we've seen statistically get into cheating, but also why the women, why the partner tends to be attracted to that. So stay tuned. It's coming up right now. And I think you're going to love this episode.

Why I was particularly interested to talk to you is because a lot of my clients have Been through relationships where they've had either emotionally unavailable partners or men, or they've had, you know, they've experienced a lot of rejection. And rejection can come in terms of cheating, you know, rejection in terms of like someone who has some kind of addiction that takes away from the relationship with that partner.

And for me, what's concerning more is not really just wanting to talk about, you know, what the person's going through while they have this coping mechanism. That's what we call it. We don't call it as much, but more so, uh, so can you hear a background noise by any chance right now or no? No. Amazing. Uh, but for me more so about why people tend to attract and stay with partners like that.

That's what I think would be a really powerful conversation. And I think that we could have a strong conversation around that. What do you think? I think that's a great idea. I think, um, the clients that I work with, actually, I'll take the couple. Um, I used to just try to start with the men, um, because I wanted to be able to, maybe if they were able to work on their, um, issues.

It would be a benefit to the couple. And then I realized that I would be treating the, the, usually the male or the stereotype, the stereotypical is usually the male, um, there would be so much, um, relief that they didn't have secrets anymore. And then, um, and then I would ask to speak with the partners because I don't believe that this healing can happen in just one, it needs to be both.

And so I would ask the partner to come in and it would just. break my heart. First is a woman to listen to another woman say, great, he feels better and I still feel bad. And um, it makes me kind of want to cry. But to me it was like, well, that's not the purpose of why I did this. Why I'm doing this is for overall healing, right?

So I said, you know what? Come in, just come in. I don't care. There's usually some like rules that say, boundaries need to be kept in place and you should just do one or the other. And I was like, no, I can't do that. I need to do each of them because I'll know each of their issues. I need to see them in groups because I'll know how they interact with other people and I need to see them as a couple.

And so I do, I see them across all of those areas. And, um, so sometimes I just have the males working with me because their partner's like, I'm done with your behavior and I'm moving on. Um, so I still have to work on healing that part of, um, them as far as they're acting out behavior, because they're going to have another partner somewhere down the line.

And then they're going to attract a similar pattern if they don't know what it is in them, that's, that's, you know, attracting that they don't know how to break it, but it's going to, the cycle is going to continue. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's exactly it. And, um, so just trying to work on like, where does that acting out come from?

That's what I term it. Um, the acting outcome from, and, um, the majority of my work for the males that I work with are, are going to be trauma based and then, Of course, the work that I'm going to do with the women is going to be trauma based. So that's, so let me ask you a question. You use this word acting out the acting out, I believe in this case, was it the acting out in terms of choosing the coping mechanism?

Is that what you meant by the acting out? Or do you mean by the. The partner who is feeling hurt by it and wants to leave. What, what, what were you talking about when you met the acting out? So, um, so like there's two partners, the partner that acts out, and that could be the person with, um, multiple affairs, one affair, um, pornography addiction.

Um, obsessing on internet relationships, just chatting and talking with people, emotional affairs. Um, there's the narcissist that, you know, it's just about like tearing into one person after another. Um, so that kind of thing, their behaviors to other people. So they have the, they have the behavioral stuff and then they have the entitlement stuff.

Like, well, why can't I do what I want to do? Um, and no empathy usually for a lot of them. Until, until it gets really rough. And then they realize, wow, this person's hurt and not happy with me. So why do you think, why do you think that there's no, that was really awesome. I love how you put that, by the way.

Why do you think two things they want to seek this level off? Let's call it. Excitement, right? Or let's call it a validation or whatever it is, but for the surface level, let's characterize it excitement. Um, what do you think they're seeking this elsewhere? And why do you think that they're not empathetic?

To the fact that this, um, you know, what the king could be hurting someone really bad. So, um, when it comes to, um, choosing the excitement, um, route, it could be a variety of areas. I'm ultimately going to say it's an escape. So, um, I need, um, We just went through a workbook that had like four areas. Are you doing it because you need arousal, excitement to avoid the pain that you have in your life?

Is it numbness because you've been treated so badly when you were younger? And the only way to get any little piece of feeling good is, is through this kind of behavior. Is it that fantasy is just where you like to function from? And you learn that from a young age because maybe your life was really hard, or maybe you really wish that you could have something different and you never got past that stage in your.

Younger years to, you know, to be able to say fantasy is, you know, fantasy needs to stay fantasy and relationships need to be real and, um, on it. Um, and then the fourth one is, um, interesting to me, but it's the, it's the piece that says, you know, I'm, um, I need to be punished. Um, I'm not good enough. Um, you know, I'm a horrible partner.

And so I just need to keep doing these kind of things because maybe he or she will figure out what's going on and just go ahead and reject me. And it's very similar to the person that has like an eating disorder. You know, I'm a bad person. I shouldn't be eating food. So let me just shut off all the all the food.

So it's almost like a self sabotage mechanism, right? Yeah. Do you think all four of these things stem from a place which ultimately comes through some sort of like A lack of self worth, which is ultimately a projection of, uh, the trauma or some wound they've gone through before, but the result that is left them with is like this feeling of a lack of self worth, which then makes them seek or create this mechanism in different ways, ultimately either sabotage their relationship ultimately to either make them, um, feel like they are more powerful by doing this, they can't get caught or that there is, they don't need to care about something else.

But it all comes from that one place. Does it make sense? I think, I think, um, anytime I look at these people, um, I look at it as it's multi dimensional and self worth, self esteem, self, um, confidence, all of that rolled up into one. I can't do it. Um, problem solving, taking care of problems as they come up. I can't do it.

Um, taking care of myself physically, emotionally, all the different levels. I can't do it. Like so many things that are like not working the way that they need to. So you don't become a resilient person. You don't learn how to see problems as they're coming down the line. Um, and you don't even know that you deserve or even what it is to have self worth, self esteem, self confidence.

And even, you know, what a lot of people don't realize is that it takes someone of high, I believe someone who's. Whether they've worked through the trauma, their insecurities, or whether they're just, you know, they've had a beautiful conditioning to have a strong sense of value at work to say, I deserve a stable, sustainable relationship, right?

I deserve a relationship where what I'm seeking is also what is provided to me and what is needed by the other person. I am willing to do the work to also provide, you know, so like the back and forth of saying that. Therefore, relationship is a mixture of, of connection, love and joy, but also commitment, commitment, which you don't have to see it as work, but you're going to see it as, as making the effort, keeping prior, like, uh, promises, prioritization, all of that.

Now, what I'm also curious, and I think a lot of people who, when they listen to us would love to know is why do people get into relationships then with men like this or people like this will ultimately cheat or seek things. Otherwise I see a big smile on your face. In case you guys aren't, uh, you can watch us and you can only hear us.

Cheryl's got a big wide teepee smile right now because she's got a lot of beautiful answers coming up. So tell us why, why do you think, why do you think people, I'm sure they're also wondering, right? Like, why the hell am I getting into the same thing over and over again? Yeah, so remember those four things I was talking about for the person that's um, you know Seeking excitement.

It's the same thing from the other side. Um, I think it's almost like a mirroring of somewhere It is and I laugh because um, I fell into it. Um, I picked a husband that had multiple addictions or multiple, you know ways of um You know, uh, you know, getting excitement, feeling something different other than the pain that he was in.

And, um, you know, when, when I realized how bad this, the, I knew he had a drinking issue, an eating issue, a spending issue. But the ultimate, um, limit for me was the pornography because my daughter caught him watching pornography and that's like a, that's a hard no, I probably needed to have a hard no for everything else, but I just, I love this person, right?

Um, and the savior complex in me. Come on. I'm a therapist. I wanna help. I was gonna say, was it as much as loving the person or attracting someone who you could wanna fix, help or heal so you felt better about yourself? You know, and I'm sorry, like, to bring it up in such like a, you know, a No, you're right.

Thing, but No, but it's so that I, I I, what I love about one our jobs is that we have the tough responsibility of empowering people rather than enabling them. You know, like in today's social media, you can get a million things that can enable you and allow the victimization and say, men are assholes and women are gold diggers, blah, blah, blah.

And you're going to agree with them till like, you know, kingdom come, but then are you happy and having a good relationship or are you just, you know, validated by social media and continuing in the, in this rabbit hole that you're in? No. Yeah. Stay negative because that's what life is supposed to be about.

Right. I don't hear about anything else about positivity. It's just, you know, men suck. Women suck. Whatever. Exactly. Big old smile when you said women suck and men suck. Is that something you say in your podcast often or did I just bring it out of you? You're, you know, I don't have a podcast myself, but, um, I just, I've been doing some work on just, um, you know, stepping into your genius.

And my thought yesterday was, um, you can't, you can't, uh, reach for Uh, positivity and you can't, you can't take positivity and, um, however it is. But ultimately to me, it was like positivity just is, so it's there. Yes. You know, I, you might have heard this, but I cuss a little bit on my work and people keep asking me like, you know, why do you cuss, you know, it makes us feel uncomfortable.

I was like, my intention is not to make you feel uncomfortable. I'm just someone who's so expressive. That I really enjoy being authentically that expressive and not, and I never use it in a manner that's like demeaning or anything else. That I actually think it's kind of fun, like when you said it and like, I can imagine that you may not say very often, like, you know, different words, even though the word like something sucks is not terrible, but I saw a little girl inside you come out because you had a big smile, you felt happy, free, easy, that level of being authentic is important, no?

It's kind of like the shaking, you know, it's like Cheryl's usually calm and patient and listening. Right. And sometimes out of nowhere, she gives this word and it's like, you know, their head is bobbing back and forth. Like, what did I just hear? But it's shocking. It's like, hear my message. Um, right. Exactly.

I love that. Thank you. You've, you've basically enabled me to keep using these words. I love it. Thank you. Um, but coming back, no, like we were talking about why women may attract like these kinds of men. And you said that it's because of those four, like, you know, categories that you talked about that sometimes these women tend to have it for themselves.

Now, can you, can you explain, um, or expand on that a little more so that they can understand, like, even if it's not in terms of those four categories and really simple ways, like what it is within them. That seeks someone who's going through like a dysfunctional like coping mechanism or whatever and what is it that makes them stay?

Two big questions. Yeah, I'm gonna use examples because examples are You know are pretty clear and I like to talk in metaphors and do all kinds of things until you can You can visualize what it is that I'm saying. Okay. I love it. I love it. So I had one person come in and, uh, she's kind of bent over. She looks exhausted, no energy.

And, um, she been to several therapists and her husband was. He was super, he was a super excitement, uh, seeker slash narcissist. Um, and she was worn out because he was taking every drop of energy. She had exposing her to every drop of negativity he was bringing into the relationship. And I remember looking at her and feeling so sad that somebody feels that bad.

And, um, I just validated that for her. Um, and wow, the. The like realization that somebody was listening to her and acknowledging her pain was just, um, God, that was like the motivator for me to keep going. And then I had another person the next day, do the same thing. And another person it's like, when you don't have somebody be able to acknowledge you have pain, you just pretend.

And if you just pretend like, just stay in the relationship, you know, and then, you know, sometimes you have people from the outside saying, you know, He's your husband. You need to stay with him. Or, um, you know, what are you going to do? You don't have any way out. Like people do what they can. And then there's the other side that's like, just get out, just run, run and get out.

And it's like, and it's not that easy, you know, it's like kids, we've got a life and yeah. And maybe you still love him. And maybe that person needs to figure out what his way is and how did it get there? So to me, it's like, when I see people. Slowly grow. I'm sure you see this too. Like you see the light come on and it starts coming from the inside out.

It's beautiful. And it makes me want to cry every time I see somebody like that. And, um, you know, I just, and when they go and they find their inner self, when they go and they find that, um, yeah, when they take the journey, when they say, okay, I'm done with paying attention to all of this stuff, I'm going to go with me.

Oh my God. That's powerful. You know, when you were just saying, um, for so many of these like women or so many of these people, I actually think that they've never, for me, the way we teach it, like through the inner child is that they've never had the opportunity to recognize that they themselves were valuable or beautiful just as they were.

Yeah. So then they tend to attract a lot of people who are, let's call them quote unquote broken, but more dysfunctional, right. Going through unavailable lives. Yeah. Unavailable emotionally, physically, and. In some ways like their, their mechanisms or their habits are like, you know, really dominant at this time, whether it's cheating, blah, blah, blah, alcoholism, et cetera.

And they attract them because just as we talked about before, I feel like two things. One, they've never known they deserved better. They didn't even have healthy ideas of relationships modeled to them, whether it was from their families or their, their environments to make them feel like their nervous systems deserve safety, security, stability, commitment.

And when the nervous systems, yeah, and trust, and when the nervous systems have no idea that this is what they deserve or what they are, what they can have. The nervous systems only go after what they can actually have or what they think they can have. It's like they say, like, if you are water, what will you seek?

You will seek more water. What will you give? You'll also give water, you know, and so the nervous system seek this kind of like lack of trust, lack of safety, lack of stability, lack of commitment. Cause that's all they think they're capable of. And I think that that's what gets them into these relationships.

And you said something beautiful where, you know, when everybody else is, or you as a therapist, when you validate what they're going through, and I think what they really go through in that moment is they feel seen, they feel seen that it's not their fault and at the same time that they deserve better because they're seeing someone who's really there for them and not just commenting and not just saying, you know, get out of this, I think that becomes the first way of where they slowly start to see themselves.

And just as you said, when they see themselves, then it's, it's like the light grows within you to take action and, you know, um, step into the next stage of what you want. Yeah. And I had a question while we were talking about it. Do you think that, I don't know if you've studied, um, you know, different communities or cultures, I've had the blessing of doing so, but I wanted to ask you if you Do you think a lot of men in North America numb themselves and their pain and their like things they're going through through these addictions of alcohol, pornography, you know, um, you know, sex, whatever else do you think they can numb themselves to these addictions and this becomes the safe?

Unconscious way that society has validated that they can go through. Yeah. So I am a big, uh, researcher. I go out there and look for answers and there's a guy named Dr. Omar. Meanwhile, uh, I'm currently in his training program and he likes to talk about what's going on with men and he talks about the man box and I've never heard that before, but he said.

It's it's where you come from. It's the culture. It's the, you know, boys will be boys. Comment. Um, you know, uh, don't cry. What's wrong with you? You're a sissy. Oh, you know, you need to go out there and hit it. You need to get more and more women. Like so many messages. These men are being bombarded with and it.

They just take the message and run with it. And then who gets hurt the partners that end up, you know, thinking, Oh, he's going to be committed to me. And they're like, they never, they don't even know what commitment is. Nobody showed them. Yeah, exactly. Just as you said. And I was just thinking, I was actually playing, uh, dominoes with, uh, I live in Mexico, by the way, so I was playing dominoes with these guys and in Mexico, they drink a fair amount and yet the level of, uh, drunk driving incidents, the level of alcoholism incidents is so much lower because.

We used to talk about this with my friends and I said, for some reason, we're all happy drunks and you think it's coincidental, but it's people with a similar nervous system who attract people with a similar nervous system to stay in this space. And so when I see these people, I was just like, wow, it's amazing that you guys, you drink a lot, but y'all are still so happy, joyful.

None of y'all are like, you know, you wave around the place, you make someone else feel uncomfortable, make a woman feel uncomfortable. None of it. And then we've gone into this deep conversation, imagine after all those tequilas, to talk about how unfortunately America and the ease to the ease of alcohol, drugs, pornography, gambling, think about culturally, the ease is an unconscious way of enabling the society to continue in a method or a system.

That favors conditioning favors, the conditioning that, you know, men should not, and, you know, we don't want them to access their emotions. We don't want them to access, you know, the feminine side of them that could actually calm them down a little bit and understand what loyalty is like, understand what like love and connection is like, we just want every man to get, you know, whenever he has pain hit the bar after work, happy hour is like the number one thing.

You know, hit the bar, get into happy hour, drown out your toughness or your sorrows of the day. And when you come back at home, honestly, you're just a vegetable who's eating a TV dinner in front of like, you know, sitting in front of the TV. And the sense of emotional regulation with a wife or a partner or kids is very poor, I think at that point.

Yes. So what coming back to the other story, actually I had another interesting question. You talked about, and I wrote this down for myself while you're talking, but you talked about narcissists, um, and excitement seekers and them being like a big component of cheating. Why do you think narcissists end up being also actually excitement seekers, that they're always seeking something externally to basically give them some sense of, I don't know, validation or some sense of importance?

Why do you think they do that? Why do you think they drain their relationships? It's, it's power and control. Um, and if they can, Um, do something that makes them feel validated, meaning I can control someone else, then that's the choice that they make. Um, and it's something I've been studying with a lot of the couples that I'm looking at because that's the ultimate question.

I have men come in and say, I'm a, I'm a narcissist. I have women come in and say, my husband's a narcissist and it's kind of like, well, where did that come from? I'm going to tell you my husband. was probably a narcissist. And I'm going to tell you, because he was the, it was emotional incest. He was the person his mother turned to when he was five, six, and seven to help regulate her.

He didn't get a chance to be a child. He didn't know what it was like to be You know, joyful in a way of just average child. He was joyful and I get my mom's attention. I'm the, I'm the, you know, I'm the, I'm the center of the world, you know, well, duh, now you're going to be, now you're going to try to find other people that do the same thing.

So, right. Cause like we said, what your nervous system's used to, it's going to keep seeking, right? Yeah. Do you also think simultaneously that there might be an unconscious overuse of this word narcissist? Because now it's like something that's blown up in society. And so. The best way of blaming someone else for what they've done instead of taking accountability also for attracting a relationship.

Is by just calling someone a narcissist. Do you think that also? Yes. So I, I get upset when I hear that word. I don't like people to put labels on themselves. And so when I hear that word, I'm actually looking more for the behavior and what need is it filling? Yes, amazing. And this is also something that we teach.

Um, you know, in, in at the inner yachts, we like the same thing we teach all that all addictions, much like even you've talked about the undertone, I just things about coping, you know, coping mechanisms to cope with something that's going on, lack of self worth, dysregulated nervous system, need for like validation, etc.

And in the same way, we try and teach people that All behaviors have some kind of cause, you know, you won't believe it. I put out this post on Instagram on like my social media platform where I talked about how narcissists, and I actually used to be a narcissist, identified as a narcissist because I had wounds I didn't know of that made me act out, as you said, in ways that I didn't think they were related.

And I much like, you know, much, you talked about, I, I cheated on partners before multiple times sought validation from other women, sort of sense of like, Emotional connection that just made me feel like I was cared for wanted. But what was so weird is I had a relationship. So why was I doing all that?

Because nothing was ever enough, right? And just when posted that, just the honesty of my story on social media, you will not believe the amount of criticism, you know, that comes. But this is social media. The amount of like, Shame and people being like, well, I never want to listen to a narcissist. And, you know, once a narcissist, always a narcissist.

And I'm like, okay, but you know, I'm trying to give you some information that can potentially help you here. You know, do you find that for you coming from your story, when you share things with people that at least they can get inspiration from them, you know, I, having gone through what you have, you talked about your relationship with a partner that you had.

You know, do you think it makes you real? And it's another form of connection. And that's the problem. These people that are in relationships with other unavailable, emotionally unavailable people don't know what it's like to feel connected. So when I see the woman that's like, Wilted, um, and I acknowledge you, you know, you're right.

That's not, that's not supposed to be happening to you. Even women that come in and have been damaged by other therapists who've told them, you need to step up to the plate. You need to take ownership of your behavior. And it's like, um, that's a survival skill that's going on. And I'm not going to say don't do it, you know?

How do you, you, you brought up a good point, which I want to help like, again, the same thing with these women who are. Okay. Let's say they have no access to changing their husband. They can't, that person can't come into conventional therapy or won't. Or let's say they don't have a partner and they're on their own.

What can you provide to them to help them not recreate this survival pattern or mechanism of theirs of getting back into these relationships with men like these, what can you give them that can help them? not attract the same kind of partners or get stuck in the same situations. So I think, I feel like if someone turns on the light or they turn on the light themselves, that they're going to be better able to see what's, what's coming their way.

Um, and so if they do some work, they talk with some people, they do the self study, they take a course, maybe that you're offering, whatever it is that they go out there, if they're, if they're determined, they're to move past something that happens like this, um, then they start looking for as many tools that they can bring to the, to the table as they can to help themselves.

And, um, you know, I guess I came up with this other metaphor. I was like, people were like, Oh, you know, this one thing didn't work and he still cheated or this one thing didn't work. And, um, you know, I don't, You know, they have all these problems and I'm like, well, you're thinking that just give me the hammer and I can build a house.

No, you need a hammer. You need some nails, you need a saw, you know, you use everything meditation, you do deep breathing, you go to therapy, you go to groups, like you have couples work and you learn to vibe with each other. Like that's what it's about. What if personally, what was. What was the first thing you did to get yourself out of that pattern?

And maybe it was about ending the relationship. Maybe it was about wanting to choose something different. If you, if you're okay to share with us. Sure. Sure. I spent 15, 000 to become a certified sex addiction therapist. Um, but I will say well spent in my opinion, it was, but it was also. on to something really sad, which is that, um, my husband with all his addictions, um, like it went to, we, I asked for a separation and while we were separated, I guess he had a, um, like a, he drank some cold medicine along with the, you know, huge amount of alcohol that he had.

And he ended up dying the three days before I went to. My sex addiction therapy program. And I went there, I'm listening to everything and I'm like, Oh, he's a mother enmeshed man. He's meeting the needs of a woman, you know, that will never think he's enough. And I'm like, I got the answer. You know, I come back home and I can't, he doesn't answer my phone call.

He doesn't do anything. And I'm like, okay, well this marriage is over and I throw my wedding ring away. And then I go and I pick it out of the trash and I'm like, I'm not done yet. I'm determined. And, um, like. At one month after he passed away, my mother in law called me to say, I need your divorce decree.

And I'm like, I'm not divorced. I'm determined. I'm going to, you know, fight this. I got to give it a try. And her response was, Oh, honey, he died. I'm like, what? You know, I was with this man for 13 years. And you tell me over the phone and the line at the, at the, uh, drug store that my husband passed away.

That's how I found out. Yeah. So yeah, lots of work on my part, lots of, lots of certifications to try to help me get through this stuff. So, um, but, but did it leave you with like, you know, you doing this, this work, wanting to find your way out and then this happening, Do you think it left you with a sense of like some sort of incompletion that you wish you could have tried this, you know, on the relationship with him or that you wish you had an opportunity to practice or I'm sorry if I'm no, I really, the, the hope was that I was going to be able to take this and, um, And run with it.

And if he chose to accept the information or the guidance, uh, you know, the pointing in a direction to get some help that it would have happened, but it, it just couldn't happen. It just didn't come to fruition. And so then I made a, uh, I made, I made this my mission, but this is not going to be something that people have to me.

Sex is great, man. When it's coming out in this format where it's like hurting people, it's not good. And I, so I'm, I'm also a sexologist, a certified sex therapist. So it's like, you know, Sex is not supposed to be this painful. And so for somebody to take that trust and that connection, that form of intimacy and give it to someone else, it's like giving it to trash.

And I'm not going to, you know, I do not want people to have that feeling walking around thinking, Oh, I'll never find that again. Or sex is bad or, you know, No, it's an end. You know, I was watching this movie the other day. Um, and it was, well, the movie was nothing to do with this particularly, but. This guy, typically very North American, he was a cop, you know, had been obviously went through a rough life growing up.

He had a beautiful wife and two kids, but he and his other like, you know, group of whatever cronies, they were sleeping with other women and blah, blah, blah. And one day his wife found out, well, this is not the first time she probably found out before. He accidentally drunk text his wife when he was trying to drunk text that girl.

And obviously his wife found out and he went home and his wife was like, I'm taking the kids and I'm going. And obviously for a man, I think when you're taking away the kids, it means I think there's a huge failed sense of responsibility at that moment that they wake up to, which they don't wake up to before.

They think that a partnership is where, you know, the woman can just be taken for granted in some sense. But what was crazy is when she was walking out and to me, like, she's a very attractive person, but she was like, I'm going to go find a guy. I'm going to go find a man who gets hard for me. And it was this huge feeling of sadness.

I felt while watching it. And I mean, most of us therapists, like we're very empathetic, right? And I felt this sense of sadness because I saw this woman who was raising two kids and she was probably doing her best and, you know, she was attractive, who felt so unwanted. It's such a painful thing to see. And once I remove just my emotional mind, and then I sat with like the whole spectrum of looking at it, I also realized that the poor woman for most of her life may never have really realized that she deserves to be consistently wanted or may have chosen a man who got her this brute attraction at the start with the sex was probably insane right at the beginning.

And then afterwards, when Commitment needed to set in that commitment equaled mundanity. And he saw his wife, the same attractive, like amazing sculpture as being just a boring piece of art on the wall that you just walk past every time you come home. What can a woman do to empower herself, even if she can't empower her husband or like do much there, what can she do to empower herself To never let herself be that boring frame on the wall that you just walk past.

Instead, be the sculpture that someone wants to take a second look at when they come home. So, two points. Um, First of all, um, the person that's seeking the excitement Whatever their reason is you as the partner that's been betrayed, um, you are enough. Um, it's not going to be for a lot of them. It's not going to be because you're not pretty enough or you don't, you know, you're not as exciting in bed or, um, you know, you're no longer interested in sex.

So I'm just going to find it from somebody else. Like there's, It's a lot of times. It's never really personal that these people decide that they're going to seek out these other things. It's like going to the candy store. You know what? If I go to the candy store and I'm walking through there and I've told myself, I have to go eat dinner at home.

If I'm impulsive, I'm going to take the candy, right? Um, and that's the, you know, and it has nothing to do with the dinner at home, not being good enough. It's just, you know, it's that I don't have self control and that could be the addictive piece. Um, it could be that, you know, I need somebody to feed me attention and that could be, um, you know, the place that they're addicted to.

So, so then the other side of that, um, that is, I really love it when women say, That's his issue. And, um, I am enough and I'm just going to keep getting stronger. And that's what actually happens is that the women, when they're working in treatment, move a lot faster than the men, because they don't have quite as much baggage.

They're more open to emotional work. And they, and they use, they use the connections to, um, other women, um, in my groups to be able to say, you know what my partner. Wouldn't do this. Um, you know, wouldn't talk to me ugly, wouldn't escalate things so he could justify going off and seeing another woman, my partner.

So like they start learning this language of this is who I want as a partner and I don't accept this stuff. Can I ask one tough question though, and this one's going to be tough. I've seen that, like, for me, it always, and this may be a belief system, this may be my way of thinking or teaching, I can, like, empower people, but I always believe that it takes two hands to clap, in the sense that if you want to make change, you, and you can't change someone else, but you don't want to stay in the same situation.

There has to be something internally that changes so that externally you can actually have a different result. And, um, I've actually found when I've looked statistically, maybe at a lot of the people who, a lot of the clients that come to me, when I evaluate who've gone through, let's say infidelity, et cetera, when I evaluate who they were.

And who they are. I also notice that especially for women, when commitment in a relationship comes in, there's an unconscious sense of complacency, which is associated with a strong sense of security, right? Which is why it's very important for women to have committed relationships, but that a lot of the time when that commitment sets in, there's an unconscious sense of complacency or, um, let's call it an overconfidence of the security that's there.

That Takes away from putting an effort into themselves and the relationship to thrive. And instead they solely focus on their partner or their children as being entities of themselves. And they forget to a large degree that they are Queens before they had a King or a, or a princess, or, and I find that that in a lot of cases, Is there element of a contribution to this two hands clapping where they've forgotten their power, they've forgotten their beauty, they've forgotten, it's not that they're not beautiful or powerful, it's that they've unconsciously over time forgotten it.

And then all the other elements that they think motherhood needs to only focus on or being a wife needs to focus on. Does that make sense? It does. Um, I, I, um, you know, I, I think when you, um, just kind of got lost here, but I'm just going to say that, um, When you, when you lose yourself in your other roles, um, there's a reason that you choose not to look at yourself.

And so the two hands, you know, coming together, you need to figure out, you know, do you even have a hand that you're putting in, into the, into the connection of the relationship? And for me, my husband treated me like a princess and I'd never had anybody do that. And, um, you know, and he truly did, uh, you know, value me.

Um, but, you know, Cause there's a level of kindness and compassion that I have. And that's what attracted me to him. There was a level of kindness and compassion, and I really wanted that to work. So I had this little message in my head that said, um, this is the path, Cheryl, and don't change it. And you know, that's where women get stuck.

Cause it's like, no, I saw this person as a certain way. And, and I'm going to keep seeing them as a certain way. And I'm not going to change my view. Um, when you don't realize you're compromising yourself, right. And that's a key thing. You don't realize you're compromising yourself and you've, most of us, like you said, have never realized that we deserve to have those high standards of love that we, we expect.

Now, one thing I've noticed that I really enjoy about people who, who have these high standards of love or self respect and I admire, like looking at them, admire to like, be more like them and teach more about them, is that they don't always attract people who don't make mistakes. They do. It. But then they have such a high standard of how they deserve to be treated that even in the way they communicated energetically and physically, the boundaries, the ultimatums, or even in terms of the expectations of their relationships, if they don't get that, like, well, I know I'll be fine if this isn't it.

And that somehow inspires the other person to say, holy shit, you know what, if I want to keep this person who I find so attractive, I've also got to do a lot of the work myself. And I, and that's the give and take that I think keeps the equilibrium of a healthy relationship. No. Yeah. So beautiful. Well, you know what, that's why you were going to say something.

No, no. I think that, um, that you beautifully described that. Um, do you, do you have anything else that you want to share with, with me, with anybody else listening? I can share all day, all day, all night. It's a passion. I know. And I love what you're doing. Honestly, I just want to say, I really enjoy the fact that you, you.

You've learned your niche from your painful experiences, because a lot of that's how I got into this work by sabotaging a lot of my own life. I recognize that I don't want to continue that. I want to have a better love life and I need to hold myself accountable to really want to do that and grow and learn.

And because of that, I can teach people now. So I want to say in spite of all the difficult things which you've gone through, for which I am sorry, I am also grateful because you're giving so much to the world, you know, and, and on that note, how would it people find you, how would people find your work?

What if they want to learn more about this? What if they, you know, wanted to reach out to you for sessions or anything else? Like how would they reach you, follow you, learn more? So, um, you can just put my name in the. In your notes, but it's uh, Cheryl Camarillo dot com and um, I have all my information on there and I am actually I have a free webinar for women that have experienced betrayal trauma that looks at the definition of trauma, the, um, you know, what, what kind of choices do you need to make as far as your own treatment, your treatment for your partner, and then the self care, um, component cause you need to do foundation stuff for yourself, take care of number one, and then you can address other things.

But where can they find that they can find that on your website? It's on my website. It's, you know, you can just give me your email and they'll send you like, it'll send you each of the, um, there's going to be three parts to it. And, um, then if you want to, you can also sign up for a free consultation. So I give 20 minute consultation, um, to people.

And, um, it's just an opportunity to kind of say, well, what's my path forward. And, um, you know, whether it's, you know, what's my path or, Hey, I want to sign up. Um, But at least they get to like, to learn more and to see if it makes sense if there's alignment, you know, for them, that opportunity is important, I think.

Yeah, I could be the one or the other, you know, five other people could do the same. Beautiful. Well, amazing, Cheryl. Really, it was really nice to get to speak to you. Just give me one second here. I'm trying to figure out something. Uh, I'm going to pause the recording.